This isn't about men's sexual desires. It's about the desires of some men (and a few women) to dominate others sexually however they see fit without having to be accountable.

Scott, it's not just Australia. Research shows legalization failed in Germany and the Netherlands as well. This post is informative. It displays that legalizing prostitution in Australia has failed to stop, or even slow down trafficking. Funny thing is...earlier when there was a call to action towards positive change you were against that as well. You did not support Amanda's post and action concerning the Craigslist situation. You seem to comment quite often with negative feedback, but not much in the way of positive ideas of your own.

Also Scott, to say that the Australian model is like "a car with no steering wheel" implies that there is a significant piece of of the system missing. Care to do some research and try to tell us what the piece is and how to fix it instead of making radical comparisons with no tangible basis?

Funny no one ever mentions France, Canada, or the UK, where prostitution is also legal. We hear only about the ones that are not working out. Where are the success stories. Surely Someone has been able to get it right!!

Well, it's legal indoors here in Canada (so long as no pimps are involved), and yet trafficking is still a problem (I know of at least one raid of a massage parlour where the prostitutes had been trafficked). Plus prostitution on the Downtown Eastside of Vancouver (DTES) is a huge tragedy. High rates of PTSD and other health problems, plus one serial killer (caught after killing 49 women), and who knows how many more. I believe people are still disappearing off the streets.

The blog I linked to further down is by a UK woman. Her take on it isn't any better.

Making it legal doesn't solve the problems. And anyway, I think the Netherlands, Germany, Australia and New Zealand are supposed to be the big success stories. Except they're not.

"France is a destination country for women and girls trafficked for sexual exploitation. The majority of these women are from countries such as Romania, Albania, and Nigeria. France's gov't suggests that the majority of the women in the commercial sex trade are from countries other than France and are victims of sex trafficking" -The Trafficking of Persons, McCabe, 2008.

Certainly, legalizing prostitution has not stopped trafficking from being a problem in France. The thing that does help France is that in recent years they have launched awareness programs, victim assistance programs, and made punishments for traffickers more severe.

Should I tackle the UK as well?

@Dennis - Thanks for taking serious consideration of my point. I was more or less focused on the information provided in this post as I'm no expert on prostitution laws of foriegn countries. 

The point, basically, is that: given that legalization of prosititution alone does not resolve human trafficing issues, does not suggest that legalization isn't a crucial part of a bigger plan that would be effective in stopping, or at least reducing human trafficing.

In the example provided in this blog post, there was no mention of measures put into place to encourage existing illegal prostitution to follow legal routes. 

Consider food packaging in the USA. (no, I'm not directly treating sexual services as food) Back in the days when The Jungle was written, food was rather dangerous and many lives were lost in the food packaging and preperation process. Public outcry, and largely The Jungle itself, help lead to a strict regulatory system.

We still get tainted food from time to time, but overall, food is extremely safe now (compared to then). There's nothing in the blog post above suggesting that Austrailia attempted to regulate the sexual services industry with the kind of oversight the FDA uses here in the US to monitor food.

Furthermore, being as lucrative as it is, there are likely ample available funds in the form of taxes to pay for the regulation.

Largely, to solve this problem, it has to be openly discussed, accepted, and embraced as a tactic. Having a significant part of the public pretend it isn't happening (because of moral rejection of prostitution) effectively pushes the practice underground in the same way making it illegal does.

To fight human trafficking, those trades attached to it should be exposed to as much oversight as possible. 

I don't see this ever happening, and I feel that this blog post is evidence of that. I personally believe that too many people are morally apposed to (and even threatened by) the idea of sexual services as a legit trade. So that as that attitude persists, we simply can not bring the trade into proper public oversight.

The irony here, to me, is that Amanda blames "men demanding cheap commercial sex" indirectly for the human trafficking problem. I feel much the opposite - that those who continue to treat the sell of sexual services as taboo are indirectly responsible.

Legalization means very little by itself. Public opinion is absolutely crucial. If society still treats something as an "under the table / out of site" topic... the legality of it doesn't matter.

This blog post comes across very much as a "see, we told you legalizing prostitution wouldn't work" tone. There's no serious analysis of facts or data. There's no considering how the approach could be recalibrated. There's no serious attempt to look for a solution in this direction - merely a big sign with four big letters: "FAIL"

Like I said, the car w/out a steering wheel crashed and folks said, "see, I told you this notion of a 'car' coudl enver work!"

There is so much research out there. There has been so much serious discussion about this issue on this blog already. It can't be summarized on every single blog post for every new person that comes along. Perhaps if you did some homework, Scott, you would understand the abolistionist stance a bit better.

You can't make sexual coercion safer. And you can't separate prostitution from sexual coercion. Sorry, it just doesn't work.

Scott, thanks for further expanding on your thoughts. I try to avoid conversations on morality. Morality varies from person to person and is basically just a matter of opinion. The point here is to try to end the problem of trafficking with the facts available to us.

This site has been pushing the idea that the buyer should be the only one penalized. This doesn't make much sense to me. A victim of trafficking should never be held accountable, but if the law is broken by willing participants, they should all pay the price, especially the pimp/trafficker. And let's not forget the role that women play in human trafficking, especially in Europe and SE Asia. I could expand on the facts, but I risk turning this comment into my own blog. Anyone who has studied human trafficking knows that women play a large role in the international slave trade.

I still contend that legalizing prostitution only adds to the problem, evidenced by countries such as the Netherlands, but the real focus should be on awareness, victim assistance, and the capture/prosecution of traffickers.

@Anemone - I see what you did there. I believe they call it a "cop out". I'll still respond to what little bit of a point you made:

"You can't make sexual coercion safer."

I just looked up the exactly definition of "sexual coercion", just to be sure I was understanding correctly.

"...againt his/her will, through threatened or actual violence or severe social consequences..."

By *definition*, sexual coercion is not "safe". If it were "safe", it wouldn't be sexual coercion. Your statement is entirely circular.

"And you can't separate prostitution from sexual coercion. Sorry, it just doesn't work."

Well, I guess I agree... you can't seperate them because they are entirely different things... Fair enough.

I'll stop being literal and playing word games and get to the point. I believe your intentions to be good and that you are aware of an enourmous amount of accurate evidence that supports your point of view. But, you're clearly coming from an emotional and ethical perspective and it is giving your stance bias that has nothing to do with reality. You're only comfortable discussing the topic with those that see it the same way you do and, when confronted otherwise, turn to a cop out. There's an unresolved issue here.

@Dennis - Morality is something we make up... just like the value of money. It's nearly the most difficult thing to debate. However, the concept of morality is one of the things that makes living worthwhile.

Somewhat like the underground drug trade, prostitution is largely a lucrative business. I watched a documentary on prostitution just a few weeks ago. Most of the girls interviewed cited that they simply can not make the same volume of money any other way. Many had expensive drug addictions to pay for. Very few actually had a plan so save an exit the trade. Still, they were in the trade because they could make the most money turning tricks.

Human trafficking doesn't happen because someone finds joy in human trafficking - it happens because it is lucrative. The more lucrative you make it, the more you encourage it. The war on drugs in the US has effectively made many thugs wealthy - many of them from outside the US. It has done nearly nothing positive in terms of reducing addiction and the destructive fallout that drug abuse can bring.

Legalizing prosititution alone is not going to work. To some extent, I agree with much of what is being said here. However, you will not - ever - put a stop to prostitution. It will not go away. Believing you can stop it is naive.

The more we try to prohibit it, the further underground and more lucrative it will become. Ultimately, it will only make the attached problems of human trafficking worse.

However, the issue of human trafficking gives anyone who wants to speak out against prostitution an excellent prop to push their ethical views on other people... which is just horrible.

You are absolutely right Scott. If legalized prostitution is not working in Australia or anywhere else, it is because the laws against the ILLEGAL trade of trafficking are not being properly enforced. So why are people blaming the legal trade for activities that are taking place illegally? As Mr. Spock would have said: "It is illogical Captain." (I grew up watching the original Star Trek series and I cannot help but notice the total lack of logic in some of these comments)

   Let's start with Sarah here who got in the first word with her knee-jerk reaction that "Common sense would tell me that if it's not working it should be repealed."   Firstly common sense had nothing to do with this reaction and I'm willing to bet that Sarah is vehemently opposed to prostitution on a moral high-ground basis and therefore would use any convoluted argument to back up her position.

   What common sense really tells us is that if it is not working in it's current form the laws should be adapted until they do. Common sense tells us that people engaging of their own freewill in consensual victimless activity should not be demonized, criminalized, and jailed.

   And Slim Chance: Shame on you for copping out like that.  How do you see any difference between legalizing pot (a matter of the right to choose your own personal course as long as you hurt no-one in the exercise of that right)  and  legalization of prostitution ( a matter of the right to choose your own personal course as long as you hurt no-one in the exercise of that right).  These issues (and gambling) fall under the umbrella of victimless crime illegal on ONLY moral grounds.  Offended sensibilities are no reason to throw otherwise law-abiding citizens in jail.

   I C you hit the nail on the head. The current legalization model is without a "steering wheel".

   Dennis G.  You insist that legalization has failed worldwide.  Failed at what?  Ending human trafficking?  How could it do otherwise if that were the aim?  This simply proves that the two ARE seperate issues.  They seem similar but are not tied intrinsically together.  The missing steering wheel is the hypocrisy built into the system.  Drug use is a large part of the prostitution trade. How would you expect a street walker to want to work from a legal house if they can't use the drugs they work for?  Maybe they would like to work from their own home, but no, not allowed.

"The thing that does help France is that in recent years they have launched awareness programs, victim assistance programs, and made punishments for traffickers more severe." Dennis G

   See, you already know the answer so why are we still asking the question?

   And Anemone, your comments are so off track I can't even bring myself to do other than ignore them.

"I try to avoid conversations on morality. Morality varies from person to person and is basically just a matter of opinion." Dennis G.

   Bravo Dennis, the problem in a nutshell. you cannot legislate morality only issues, it is akin to enforced religion (and we see how well that kind of tyranny works for the Muslim countries). And if this is a morality issue then education and counselling campaigns are the answer, not jail time.

It's not just a rant, and she doesn't equate men's sexual desires with the suffering of prostitution.

Like men who rape, those who pay for sex from these women - who must clearly not be happy and healthy - do not think of sex as an act of love, but one of power.

The fact that legalizing prostitution does not work in Australia may or may not correlate to other countries, but it's certainly a significant development in the debate!

Lawmakers everywhere could easily change the law to specify that it's illegal to traffick or coerce anyone sexually and to have sex with minors at all!

The (mostly) men engaged in these activities are the ones who should be. 

Nor is this a 'victimless' crime; research shows over 90% of prostitution involves an element of coercion (Bob Herbert, NYT op ed), including that by pimps who 'rescue' adolescent runaways in cities, then trap them into a lifetime of drugs and dependence, illness from STDs and trauma, particularly for girls previously sexually abused. 

To change these laws would be a first step; a lasting one would be to change cultural attitudes toward women and sex, here and globally, starting with the concept that it's natural for men to define, value and use women most of for their sexuality.  If a pedophile regards a young boy this way - as being a natural object of his sexual desire, regardless of that boy's wishes or well being - he is villified. Why isn't the use of young girls' and women's bodies viewed with the same outrage?  Societal and cultural attitudes toward women are deeply rooted, but not impossible to drag into the light of day! 

Good work, Amanda, but look to the roots as well as the sickness (and mind your grammar; also, coercion is, by definition, 'forced')!

   As a man, my apologies to you for whatever sexual depravities you may have been subjected to, but...

   Sex is not depravity in and of itself. This issue is not about anyone being forced to perform prostitution contrary to it having been placed in the Human Trafficking catagory. It is about freedom of choice to these women. This is what they do and what they want to do.

   The pathetic excuses for men of which you speak are only human and most aren't "raping" anyone. They are lonely, unsatisfied, hormone driven men. I don't think this article is about the moralities involved, rather the freedom of choice between willing participants.

   As for that small percentage who are forced and working in illegal brothels, Australia should step up efforts to educate the public, enforce the laws, and inspire informants. Those who run these houses should be fried.

I agree with what you say the article focuses on.

However, I disagree with you that men who pay to have sex with someone aren't pathetic.  I don't care if they are lonely or not--they cannot all be that much in denial about how these women are either being forced to perform with them, or so emotionally deranged (from abuse) that they are willingly allowing themselves to be used for money.  Therefore, it is a form of rape.  If you are having sex with a woman and she agrees for any other reason than she really wants to, it is disgusting and you are a pathetic excuse for a man.

I would be surprised and saddened to learn if you had daughters.

  Madam, how dare you to insinuate such a horrible thing.  My beautiful daughter is 19 now and married. You think you know me? From one paragraph? You seem to be the type to make snap judgements not based on a clear reality and then just orally defecate that opinion on anyone who'll listen. Why would you make this personal?  Did I say anything about wanting to jet down to the outback and rape women?  Did I insult your daughters?

   You are entitled to your opinion of these men.
That is always your right.  However, you are not entitled to your opinion of me simply because I have reasons for a more sensible, reality based approach.  I am grounded in the real world. I live life with eyes wide open. My best friends sister who died two years ago was an escort (prostitute, hooker, or other condescending name you prefer). He and his family pulled their hair out trying to get her to stop.  Years of battles later they all came to the same conclusion. They could see that she was doing what she wanted to do. This was what made her happy. Why?  Who knows. It doesn't matter here. It only matters that she made her choice.  Her choice.

   Their customers are pathetic, or so you reiterate.  Maybe so. But how is it your place to cast aspersions?  Have you walked a mile in their shoes? Why is it always the mans fault? Who is corrupting who? Didn't Eve tempt Adam?

   Bottom line:  The majority of these people are doing what they want, making their own choices, and they will undoubtedly continue to do so.  The question is do we criminalize them for it? What is the point? It does nothing to stop it. If they are working in the open at least we can make counseling and other services and alternatives available to them.

Hi Everyone,

What great and enthusiastic debate!  Blogging is a conversation and there's plenty of space for disagreement.  Personal attacks, on the other hand, really detract from the conversation. 

Thanks in advance for keeping it respectful!

Amanda

Just because someone refuses to stop doing something dysfunctional or dangerous, doesn't mean they know what they're doing. People who have been sexually abused sometimes act out promiscuously as a reaction - something gets scrambled inside their brain and their behaviour becomes unsafer. Is that a good thing? A harmless thing? A victimless thing? And who is responsible? Them or society?

I'm reading a blog by a prostitution survivor who says that when she was a prostitute, she thought she was willing and empowered, but now she's falling apart as it all hits her. It's very easy for some people to dissociate (go numb) and not really feel what they're doing. If you came across an accident victim who was bleeding all over the place, but who said she was fine, would you take her word for it? Of course not. Even if people insist they're doing what they want to do, if they're in unsafe conditions, some sort of intervention is needed just on general ethical principles. (That doesn't mean I think all prostitutes are victims - just that you need objective criteria to determine if they are or not. Their word is not enough in such circumstances.)

Here's the blog I mentioned:

http://rmott62.wordpress.com/

If you thought I was insinuating that you personally have been a patron of the sex slave or prostitution industry, my apologies.  I can see now rereading it that it does say "you" but rather I meant "one" (however I do believe that "men" who use women as objects are disgusting--not stating that you do that).  Anemone does make an excellent point that I've failed to: just because someone chooses to do something, doesn't mean they know what they're doing.  Sexual abuse research states that victims typically fall into a vicious cycle of putting themselves in abusive situations well after the abuse they suffer as children stops.  I would find it almost impossible to believe that any woman in prostitution has not been sexually or physically abused at some point in her life (most likely as a young child).  She may not remember it, or remember it in a distorted way, and think that she has control over herself and her body.  This may be an opportunity for her to be the one with power and control, and so she feels like it is something she wants to do (even though once the cycle hits rock bottom, she suffers and then it begins again).  It is facts like these that I think many people are not aware of, and it may look like the person is doing it because they want to, but ironically it is a way to cope with the past. 

As a sexual abuse survivor I feel like I know at least a shred of what may motivate these women to do this.  Though it is incredibly unfortunate that these men (johns) take advantage of what another man has destroyed when she was a child--a girl/woman's soul and self-respect.  For that, I fault them.  I do not think they are so naieve that they believe these women are willingly allowing their bodies to be violated because it is a positive experience for them.  I guess it is not completely the john's fault, as you say, since it is partially the fault of the initial perpetrator.  But he seems to have no shame in taking advantage of her unfortunate state-and that is what is appalling.  I suppose since even though it is something that YOU would not do, the fact that you state that it is acceptable at all is unsettling.  I feel sad for any young girl whose main male influence in her formative years believes that any form of prostitution is acceptable.  I would fear she would pick up on this attitude, expressed explicitly or implicitly, and it may mold her ideas about whether or not she should ever accept being treated as an object.  That is all I meant about that.

And please, no Bible references, because we all know that was written by men.  Moreover,  I'm pretty sure the Bible states that prostitution is unacceptable.

Hope this clears things up.

You've hit the nail on the head Susan. Slavery, rape, forced prostitution and trafficking are not about satisfying sexual desires nor are they even about money. It is about dominance. Sadly; as long as there are people who care nothing for the inherent worth of other people, it will always exist in one form or another. People use these activities in a vain attempt to stamp out prostitution entirely. However; it is not called the oldest profession in the world for nothing. It has never been stamped out nor will it ever be because the laws of nature prevent it. And yes; absolutely I would much rather pay a little more for a woman to WILLINGLY have sex with me. In fact; I personally could never force myself on a woman. An unwilling attitude is a HUGE TURN-OFF for me. So despite what the man haters say; there are some GOOD men out here.

@Susan, you said, "If you are having sex with a woman and she agrees for any other reason than she really wants to, it is disgusting and you are a pathetic excuse for a man."

It makes me sad to hear you say that. That statement alone makes it clear that you have a very limited understanding of male sexuality.

First, prostitution is far from limited to men seeking sex from women. The reverse is very often true.

Secondly, human sexuality is far from a perfect system matching willing boys and girls together in harmony. Even loving and strong dedicated partners often have trouble seeking mutual sexual fulfillment.

Third, women frequently and decitefully agree to sex for other reasons than "they want to." From financial security to emotional security - women are far less likely to engage in sexual activity "because they want to" than a man is. There are many books and many studies done on this topic. It is part of the human condition.

For a man to seek an engagement with a woman where the terms are clearly defined is not "disgusting" nor "pathetic". And as suggested in another comment I posted above, I believe it is this type of attitude that indirectly supports the human trafficking trade.

I agree completely with Susan regarding the johns who pay to have sex with trafficked women/girls. Please keep in mind though that it can sometimes be hard to tell and they are too afraid to tell you. A HUGE red flag should be when you pay anyone other than the woman you are having sex with. I would not ever do that. I would give HER the money and whatever happened afterwards would not be my responsibility. However; if I even SUSPECTED she was enslaved and being forced to do it, I would walk away immediately.

Susan, I completely understand your point of view. And sorry for the bible reference, I was simply illustrating a point (I am an atheist).

   Women are as likely to use sex as a weapon or a means to an end as a man is to do whatever she requires to get what he needs (and yes sex is a need, hard-wired into every male of every species).

   But prostitution and human trafficking are separate issues. They may seem similar to you but they are not intrinsically mated. Human trafficking is a slavery issue, not a sex issue. Slavery is forced labor be it for sex, farm work, construction, personal servitude, etc.  Slavery for sex is the most abhorrent type but obfuscating the issue with debate on the legalization of prostitution only serves to draw attention from the true problems and solutions.

   To read your post you are of the opinion that no woman chooses the sex trade of their own volition. Perhaps this is because you don't personally enjoy sex and assume therefore that all woman share your opinion.  They don't. Many women enjoy sex, and if they see a way to make loads of cash doing what they love, they choose to do so. Their choice.

   A woman who has been abused as a child doesn't know what they're doing?  What kind of convoluted statement is that? I was beat up regularly as a child. I don't go out looking to get beat up. Perhaps they became numb to the bad aspects and decided the money is worth it. In your mind that makes the "John" guilty of rape?

@Timothy: I appreciate you noting that you understand my point of view.  You don't have to agree with me, or anyone, but respecting another's statements are key to any discussion.  If any of us truly have the intent to learn here, instead of the intent to be controlling and try to change people's minds to what they believe, then some progress can be made. I, at this point, do regret stating that men who buy and use a prostitute are ALL pieces of sh@t.  Many are as we can all agree, but I can accept the possibility now that it isn't necessarily the case.  I hope the group can accept my apology.

I do not think that no woman chooses the sex trade of her own volition.  I think that is far less the situation, but I'm sure that is the case sometimes.  I do not understand where you would get the idea that I may not enjoy sex. I absolutely do, and I know that most women do as well, I just think most women would prefer to have sex with someone who wasn't blatantly using them.  You and others on this blog have convinced me that there are women out there that don't care if someone is using them.  The money is worth it.  I get it.  I don't get it, but ok I get it.

You have to do a bit more reading on sexual abuse before comparing it to verbal or physical abuse, though.  I am not saying that verbal/physical abuse is not horrific, I'm saying that the typical repercussions of sexual abuse/incest on a child (male or female) are DIFFERENT than that of other forms of abuse.  And, being that you are male, it is far more likely that you would be the violent person in a relationship, if you behaved violently as a result of being beaten as a child.  I'm sorry to hear that you were treated that way.  Every child deserves to be treated like they are the light of the world...and the inner child in all of us can hopefully heal at one point so we can put an end to so much suffering.

BTW--that is shady that some people are erasing each other's posts.  I didn't even know you could do that!  C'mon people, grow up!

I think only an admin can delete a post. You can report one and the admin either deletes it or re-instates it.

   But anyway, we seem to be making progress which is a good thing compared to its alternative of stagnation.  Ok, maybe the not liking sex part was a little out of line but I have trouble wrapping my mind around the reasoning of anti's and that's all I could come up with. But if as you say you now see that often it is the willing choice of the prostitute could we make it to the next step that they should not be jailed for this decision? Could we agree that a better course would be to make a reasonable health plan available, counselling, victim advocacy, and other programs which are working elsewhere?

   And if we can make it to that point then we have separated the illegal from the legal. This is crucial for so many reasons.  Not the least of which is that the legal sex trade workers can become the eyes and ears of the trafficking reporting network. Maybe a reward system for info leading to...

    Prostitutes should be licensed. There should be a five year moratorium on license fees to get the ball rolling. The license should come with free health checks, counseling, and other perks. This can be paid for with the taxes from the houses they work from. Workers could opt to pay a reasonable fee and work solo if they prefer.

   The point here is that the devil is in the details and unless we lose the high and mighty hypocrisy we'll compromise the effectiveness right out of the program. And that is what has happened in Australia. The right was so vehement in their opposition that they forced so many concessions that the whole thing is worthless.

   And in the confusion the traffickers prosper.

   The current health care debate is a good analogy with the right saying (as usual) no, No, NO! and the left compromising on top of compromise.

   It's time we stand up and fight for a little common sense. Not the common sense of the right but the real kind. Legalize prostitution, legalize drugs, legalize gambling. Educate, educate, educate. Tax, tax, tax! Separate the real criminals from the merely morally deficient.

   Then and only then will these spin-off crime gangs lose their grip on the society's they suck dry.

But Timothy, what about the unintended pregnancies that unfortunately result from this?  Isn't that criminal?  Obviously there are many people out there getting pregnant that don't want to be (and they're not prostitutes), but even if we give these women liscenses and health care, all that, what about pregnancy?  Shouldn't there be something built into this to avoid that?  I'm pro-life, but I draw the line with just terminating multiple times a year and tax dollars going to that.  It's a touchy issue here because I'd be all for the "lisensed" prostitutes to be sterilized, but then that's a civil rights issue>>but this is all a civil rights issue, huh?  What do you think?

Oh Susan; Please! That argument might have worked in the 60's. This is 2009. We have a morning after pill for chrissakes. There is NO excuse for unwanted pregnancy anymore and; with regard to consensual prostitution, Yes; it IS the woman's responsibility.

And I don't know anyone who is pro-death. Some of us simply believe that it is the WOMAN"S choice whether or not to have an abortion and the government should keep their nose out of that decision. Thus the term: "PRO-CHOICE" which many people are also twisting to conform to their own distorted views of: "I know what's best for you and as soon as you realize that I and all who think like me are God, the better off you will be." BULL!!! I think for myself thank you very much and I encourage everyone else to do the same.

This wasn't meant to be hostile Susan, only to prove a point ok?

I agree to a certain extent--it would be the prostitute's responsibility--but how responsible are you realistically expecting these people to be? I haven't watched that documentary "Born into Brothels" yet, but I'm dreading forcing myself to watch it because it's going to make me so MAD.  I can't help but think something more would need to be done for contraception in the case of legalizing prostitution.

I expect them to be responsible enough to stop on their way home in the morning and pick up a morning after pill. How hard is that? Of course; that is provided they have the money and the capacity. The real hard core drug addicted prostitutes probably cannot think that far ahead. Once again Susan; you are not seeing eye to eye with my point. I am referring to sex workers like Alexa, high end escorts who do it consensually and usually know EXACTLY what they are doing.

I have not seen that documentary yet either I don't believe. If I did I don't remember it. Will you tell me when it's on? I will watch it. You know from our private conversations how open minded I am. But like I told you; that comes at a cost. I believe in individual liberties and freedom of choice for everyone, prostitutes included as long as they are not hurting anyone OTHER than themselves. You cannot save people from themselves Susan. You can try but with most people it is like butting your head up against a brick wall. I believe in live and let live. What Alexa is doing does not pose any threat to anyone except her and frankly; that is none of my business. That doesn't mean I don't care but to tell her that she cannot choose that path for herself because it offends my morality would be a violation of her civil liberties. Can you understand this rationale?

"At least they can now report unfair and abusive practices to the Workplace Ombudsman without fear of being thrown in jail."

I couldn't have said it better Campbell. Herein lies the difference between legal and illegal. This is why it is so important to legalize prostitution as quickly as possible. Just imagine how many women might have been saved from death or worse, having their lives/bodies ruined for life, if we had legalized prostitution in the 60's? WOW!! I would guess the number would be in the 10-100,000 range. Your last comment however disturbed me a bit. Sex as a commercial product is not necessarily treating human beings like goods. It all depends on the human beings involved. Any transaction where ALL parties involved are WILLING should be perfectly ok. This is where Susan misunderstood me also. I am only against FORCED prostitution and slavery. The wrong does not come from a man and a woman (or any other combination thereof) Willfully engaging in agreed upon sexual activities for an agreed upon price. The wrong comes from women being forcibly taken from their homes and families, held in captivity, and forced to work as prostitutes under threat of severe beatings, death to loved ones, death to themselves, being forced to endure rape from customers even while the women themselves receive no pay whatsoever or very little pay. It is these monsters who should be strung up by their testicles from a tall oak tree and beaten with bamboo sticks by the very women they enslaved. NOT the ordinary Joe who's just looking for a little action he can't get at home.

PLEASE PEOPLE: STOP CONFUSING THE TWO!!! Thanks.

Just one observation; it is not only "people of color" who are victims  of unjust prohibition. It is the poor.

I agree but can you please take it to another forum. This one is not about drugs.

   I beg to differ Mike.  Drugs fuel the sex trade.  The failure of current systems to function as advertised is due to overlooking that fact.

And sex, or the lack thereof; fuel the drug trade. Maybe if we legalize prostitution we'll lessen the number of drug users. Then again; I've heard that having sex while on cocaine can be a wild ride. Never tried it however since I don't use drugs.

Your comment makes about as much sense as drinking icewater in Alaska. First of all; if a woman is a drug addict then she is a slave to her own habit and where else pray tell, COULD she find work. Rehabilitate her? Why sure, however; our government would rather throw her in jail for using illegal drugs than help her straighten out her life. And we dare to call ourselvers a MORAL society? C'Mon people. Can't you all see how irrational and illogical some of these arguments sound?

Again; arresting and fining or jailing pimps, johns, or prostitutes is the establishment AGAINST FREE CHOICE and this is not Saudi Arabia. Only when a woman is held against her will and literally forced to be engaged in prostitution should it be a crime and then, especially then, not a crime for the woman but for those forcing her.

Kyle, in your list you forget to mention that many of these 'women' are actually aged between 12 and 15 years.........

and....  Mike, at that age they don't have the right to free choice....   I would also point out that in my (limited) personal experience of talking with some of these victims, they had no choice even as adults... and very few of them know of other victims who choose the lifestyle free of circumstance or outside influence......

johnstack@svetna.com

http://www.svetna.com

John, If a girl age 12-15 is a prostitute she is a walking red flag that there are traffickers operating in the area and she IS being FORCED to do it. So I absolutely agree with you that a girl of that age does not have the ability to make her own choices yet however; Does this mean we should throw HER in jail for committing an illegal act in being a prostitute. As heavily biased as our society is against prostitution as a trade, that is most likely what would happen. So with regard to the women/girl who is trafficked you argument proves what exactly?

You also said: "and very few of them know of other victims who choose the lifestyle free of circumstance or outside influence......"  

I suggest you Google search The Bunny Ranch in Reno Nevada. This is a classic example of how well legalized prostitution CAN work if done right. I don't see anyone here being trafficked. The women are all happy and earn a very good living.

Mike, children that are forced into trafficking are victims and need help not recrimination or a prison sentence - I think we agree on that. The problem here is one of re-educating law enforcement into spotting the difference. My argument is that prostitution is an entirely different thing to Human Trafficking and as I have said repeatedly here on this blog over the last six months, I believe we should split these issues into different causes.    1) Human Trafficking  2) Legalization of prostitution.

Good luck to the ladies at the Bunny Ranch and indeed any other person who 'chooses' to engage in prostition  -  or indeed any other activity that doesn't intentionally hurt others...  but the fact is that anyone that meets the criteria of being Trafficked has not had that free choice  -  and there an awful lot of them.......

The law doesn't need to be repealed. They need to get tougher on those acting OUTSIDE the law. Thank you.

Prostitutes can work solo out of their homes. They're not illegal, just not regulated.

One of the problems with legal brothels is that they are much more expensive to operate, and all that regulation is a hassle for people who are only in the business short term. But prostitutes can always work solo if they like, and it's safer than many realize.

Regardless of why, the current system isn't working as planned.

I have only one word for this comment; AMEN!!!

Alex,

A good point, but let's be aware that Human Trafficking is on the increase in New Zealand at an alarming rate............

johnstack@svetna.com  -  http://www.svetna.com

John, what is your (unbiased) source for that assertion?

Well Alexa, depends on your definition of unbiased.......    but, my readings on the subject have been via the following

Apartheid in New Zealand - http://newzeelend.wordpress.com/2008/06/05/new-depth-in-depravity-for-new-zealand/

The New Zealand Herald - http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10592755

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10360850

The Human Rights Commission - http://www.hrc.co.nz/home/default.php

Trafficking in persons report 2008 - http://rtsf.wordpress.com/2008/06/05/new-zealand-a-%E2%80%9Cdestination-country%E2%80%9D-for-human-trafficking/

based against the background of a 2005 report by Humantrafficking.org

http://www.humantrafficking.org/countries/new_zealand

 Obviously there is quite a lot of stuff in there, but essentially from a position in 2005 where the general feeling is that numbers were low, the situation has changed quite alarmingly in numbers. The good news is of course that the NZ authorities appear to be doing all the right things to counter the traffickers - or at least as much as any other government is doing.....

regards  johnstack@svetna.com

http://www.svetna.com

Alexa,  you might also want to check out this site - http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/2779294/Major-conference-on-human-trafficking-planned

which actually blames the increase on the recession...   there you go...

I think Amanda and everyone needs to separate bias from fact before any REAL progress can be made.

Prohibiting freedom of choice is not the answer. Creating common sense laws that will protect women from violent offenders while allowing them the freedom to choose prostitution as an occupation if they wish is the answer. Until we learn to separate personal biases against the prostitution trade in general from the horrors of brutality which take place within the trafficking trade, these women will simply go on being persecuted and brutalized. Tell me; would you rather put a stop to the horrors women in the captivity of a trafficker face each and every day? Or simply continue trying to stamp out the trade all together because YOU are personally offended by it? I think if you asked the women who are being brutalized, they would ask you to put aside your biases and offer them some mercy.

Studies have been done Jack, and they are available. Here is one example. Direct your attention to the title "Fallacy of Legalization".

http://www.humantrafficking.org/updates/745

This quote from that update says so much:

"We urge all people of good will to open your hearts to the victims and to act to change the root causes of human trafficking -- poverty, gender inequality, discrimination, greed and corruption," the statement declared. "Our hope rests in a vision of humanity which honors the principle that no woman, child or man is a commodity for sale."

   Please take note that sexual desire is not mentioned here as a cause. The only criminals in this scenario are the traffickers themselves. It is their greed, lack of respect for fellow humans, and total disregard for needs other than their own that facilitate the rest of the chain.

   Enforcement and intelligence gathering against these trafficking networks is essential whether prostitution is legal or not.

   Working to end blind-eye, open palm corruption within the law enforcement community is essential whether prostitution is legal or not.

   Public education campaigns are essential, legal or not.

   Programs to counsel and help affected women are essential, legal or not.

   Tolerance is essential, legal or not.

   The only difference, legal or not, is do we jail and stigmatize one alternative segment of our society which, whether you agree with it or not, isn't going anywhere. Forced morality has historically had the opposite reactionary result than desired. Why would we as a society cause a women to feel they have nowhere to turn? Why do we make legal help a legal hassle?

   Terrible things are happening all around the world every minute of every day.  Should we waste our time chasing the tail while the head still feeds?  Let the people who are doing as they choose have an opportunity to do so above board, afforded all the legal protections of any other citizen, and go hard after all the rest.  But it can't be done hypocritically. Rules must be consistent, enforcement must be thorough, and regulations can not be overly restrictive.

   As for legalization of prostitution causing additional human trafficking the numbers do not bear that out and trafficking would grow as it has either way. It's climate for growth comes from lax enforcement.

   And as for Nevada where around 10% of prostitutes work legally this is due to the exceedingly high standards of the brothels versus the women from all over the country who go there to work, similar to the influx to Hollywood of hopeful actresses who turn to other means to survive.

   Trafficking numbers are exaggerated because they include travel that is not forced or coerced if it leads to work in the sex trade. Of course Australias' trafficking numbers would go up if you figure in all the women who would naturally travel to an area where they can work their chosen profession legally.

   I should probably clarify that while I feel the numbers are greatly exaggerated I also feel that the still large number of women who are forced to endure a life not of their own choosing is abhorrent and unacceptable. It justifies any expenditure of money and man (woman) power to put an end to it. I applaud the efforts of those here who have given so much of their time and energy toward resolving the problem.

Great ideas Jack. I will do that very research although it might be tough considering the discretion factor. But I will do my best. And you are right. Trafficking might well exist in Nevada but if it does, you certainly don't hear about it.

LOL Mike. This is just an advertisement. It offers  zero information about trafficking. Mike, you not only contradict yourself, but you are disingenuous as well.

Please elaborate further Dennis. How do I contradict myself?  And how am I disingenuous?  Don't simply hurl accusations at me that you cannot back up because you have no credible counter argument for what I propose. I offered the bunny ranch as an example of what LEGAL prostitution is. Do those women look abused to you? They look pretty well off to me. That was my point. Oh and btw; I checked out the site you mentioned: "The fallacy of legalization" Not much information there either. But why don't you talk to Vicki Wyzkowski. I posted her comments below. She was a VICTIM of Trafficking and she disagrees with you and all the other illogical people who would rather see women go on being brutalized, raped, and murdered than admit they're wrong and allow something that offends their personal self-righteous sense of morality to be made legal. If the consensual sale of sex doesn't bother the women selling it, then why in the hell should it bother you? Or anyone else on here for that matter. Once again; it comes down to the old "Freedom of Choice" thing. You tell Alexa that she cannot practice her CHOSEN profession because why? What reason will you give her? Because it offends YOU? That's SO Jerry Falwell I can't even begin to tell you. The fact is our government is violating the civil rights of women like Alexa and have been for years. Why? Because of self appointed watchers of our national morality? HOGWASH!!

Prostitution has always been illegal here in the U.S. It has not worked to stop trafficking in fact, in many instances it has made the situation worse. Logic dictates that if there are only two options and option one is not getting the job done; you switch over to option two. Who is disingenuous now?

Ok. You contradict yourself because you state that prostituion and trafficking are seperate issues, but then you connect the two in attempts to rationalize the legalization of prostitution. You seem disingenuous because you seem more concerned with your "right" to buy sex than facing facts about trafficking. If you think an ad for the bunny ranch or any ad for the sale of sex proves anything, then you are an even bigger fool than I thought. The women there may not be slaves, but what do you expect to see in such an advertisement even if the women were victims? Do you think the people who run such a service would show the women in shackles? Give me a break!

Now, you must not have read my comments, because NOWHERE did I offer a moral stance on prostitution. I only go by the research that has is available. This research has shown legalization does not work.

You also suggest that I would rather see trafficking continue because of my self righteous sense of morality. This is quite false. Making those sort of accusations while you hide behind your computer screen show you for the coward that you are.

There you go again making assumptions about me when you don't even know me. Are you a shrink? You say I state that prostitution and trafficking are separate issues. I never said that. That was John Stack I believe who said that. What I said is: trafficking is the issue that should be a crime. Prostitution; consensual prostitution should NOT be a crime. The two issues are linked together not by me; but by all those disingenuous people who are keeping both illegal. The only way to separate the two is to legalize one of them. Divide and conquer. The only way to stop trafficking is to legalize CONSENSUAL prostitution.

You say I am more concerned with my right to buy sex. Please tell me where I stated this Dennis? Copy and paste it in your reply please? Because I never said that. I have never enlisted the services of a prostitute in my life. What I said is: it is a violation of the civil liberties of women like Alexa who CHOOSE FREELY to be a high end escort. You, and people like you, are effectively saying to her: "You cannot choose that as a profession because I am offended by it."  That is wrong. Live and let live man. It is HER life, and HER body. Not yours. Therefore the only crime being committed is your violation of Alexa's civil liberties.

Trafficking, on the other hand, involves Kidnapping, assault, rape, and murder, all felonies here in the U.S. Again; the difference is clear to see for those of us thinking with a clear head anyway. However; the fact remains that the two issues are inseparably linked by their illegality and until we separate them, we will NEVER STOP TRAFFICKING!!! I'm sorry. I don't care what anyone says. It cannot be done.

But Alexa, we still don't have a way of determining who's willing and who's forced into it. Just asking them doesn't work, and telling the ones who are coerced to go to the authorities doesn't work either, even when they're at no risk from the authorities. Given that most prostitutes are coerced to a significant degree, and that most prostitutes experience significant harm, it makes more sense to end prostitution than somehow figure out how to differentiate between the two groups.

Unless you've figured out an effective way of doing this?

Anemone; That is why the FIRST step is to legalize prostitution as a profession. This will give the women being trafficked an outlet. They will then be able to go to law enforcement for help. As of now; they have no where to turn for help. They are all alone and at the mercy of their merciless captors while we sit here and debate the morality of the WILLING exchange of sex for money. 

Mike, there are some countries where if you're forced into prostitution, and you go to the authorities, they will either jail you or deport you, even knowing you were forced. Are you saying that the US, Australia, Canada (where I am) are still that bad? It seems to me that in the West, at least, you can go to the police now if you've been trafficked (assuming you can escape) even if prostitution is still largely or completely illegal in the country you're in. A few years ago, maybe not, but I think the police are now largely aware of the issues and are handling it better.

Or are you saying that if all prostitution were legal, the police would be able to spot the trafficked workers? Because of some sort of registration thing?

Anemone, to think that a law enforcement officer in any branch, police, DEA, FBI, can, in good conscience, differentiate between a prostitute and her trafficker when BOTH are illegal is not only disengenuous, but downright contradictory. The law is the law and it is up to judges and juries to decide the fate of all caught in ilegal acts. This is exactly why most prostitutes are afraid to come forward. Legalize the consensual sale of sex and watch the flood of reports begin to trickle in resulting in the demise of sex trafficking as an industry. Until we separate the LEGALITY; the two issues remain hopelessly bonded together because the women being enslaved have no recourse. (Read this post from a woman who WAS TRAFFICKED)

"As a victim of human Trafficking for the purpose of being sold for sex I fully support this! because i was drugged and had ether rags shoved in my face bound and gagged and sold on a college campus and the cops that showed up REFUSED TO HELP ME and instead said that I was drunk and left me with my captors; the next day when I tried to file a report one of my captors showed up and threatned me with a gun! My captor/rapist was a COP! I support this! Let the women that want to be whores do it and do it openly so that 16 year old girls(the age I was when this happened to me) don't get forced into being sex slaves!

Tax them, make them get checked for STDS on a regular basis and make them purchase a lisence to practice."

Posted by Vicki Wyzykowski on 12/08/2008 @ 11:23AM PT

Take it from someone who has been there.

Alexa, Can you provide some insight into the distinction between the WILLING sale of sex for money and trafficking? I don't seem to be doing a very good job of breaking through the mud here. Too many personal biases which result in non-action and all the while, women are being terrorized, brutalized, raped, and killed every single day that action is delayed.

Mike, the basic definition of human trafficking is ...the commerce and trade in the movement or migration of people, legal and illegal, including both legitimate labor activities as well as forced labor. The term is used in a more narrow sense by advocacy groups to mean the recruitment, transportation, harbouring, or receipt of people for the purposes of slavery, prostitution, and forced labor.

Now contrast that with someone like me who wilingly, of her own accord, enters the professional of prostitution.  No one has manipulated me, coerced me, forced me, etc., into what I am doing.  And that is the case with the overwhelming majority of people who enter sex work (which includes porn performance, stripping, prostitution, phone sex work, and a host of other, related occupations).

To conflate how I entered this profession with that of someone who's been forced into it not only does an injustice to and denigrates the experience of the person who's actually been forced into it, but denies me my individual agency as well.  And to what end?  Grandstanding?  Sensationalization?  A pathetic attempt to gain converts from those too dense to understand the differences?  I don't really know - it seems rather unproductive to me.

When people like Amanda try to portray me as having been trafficked when it is so clearly demonstrated that there's nothing in my history that remotely resembles the true definition of "human trafficking," she's making herself look silly and those who work tirelessly to actually fight the trafficking of people into this industry just laugh have to fight to distance themselves from her because they don't want to be seen as too ignorant to understand the differences.  Sadly, there are some people who buy into this stuff (as you can see from the comments by the likes of Ishe, et. al.). 

I started a web site where professional sex workers describe their first professional sexual experiences and explain why they got into the business, if anyone's interested in reading it.  It's at http://www.myfirstprofessionalsex.com.  It's just started but there are already many women (and soon to be men as well) who've explained why they do what they do. Reading their stories, you can very clearly see that they're not "trafficked" in any way (unless you intentionally perver the legitimate definition of the word, of course). 

Note to Mods:  If you delete this comment, I have it saved and I'll just repost it. ;-)

Alex,

You state that "the overwhelming majority of people who enter sex work" do so willingly - well...  there would appear to be an awful lot of human trafficked victims out there as well and they are not there of their own free will. A lot of them are kids.....

Legalizing prostitution is a mute point when it comes to trafficking because unless there is a 'zero tolerance' option by the law enforcement agencies against the traffickers, then there will still be people forced into sex slavery......and.. the enforcement agencies need to recognize that the victims are just that - victims....  not criminals

If common sense is applied, the right offenders targeted, the victims protected and helped...  The trafficking stopped......then.....   who cares if someone wants to sell themselves...  as long as its their choice...  it's everyones human right to do their own thing as long as their not intentionally hurting someone else.....

If someone tried to stop me having my glass of whisky this evening I'd fight them tooth and nail for my right to do so......

johnstack@svetna.com - http://www.svetna.com

So Alex,

   You say no legalization until all trafficking has ended?  Now I'm confused because you just said it was a moot point, in other words, unconnected.  So legalization would still be the right thing regardless of the trafficking issue...      ...wouldn't it?

No Timothy, I'm not saying that legalizing prostitution should wait until trafficking has ended.I'm saying that prostitution is an action that is carried out by someone of their own free will. A victim of trafficking has no such choice. If someone wants to choose to do something - providing it does not intentionally hurt other people, then why not?  The problem as I see it is that Legalizing prostitution and the actions required to combat Human Trafficking are two separate issues and I have repeatedly suggested that they should be treated as such here on ch.o

I disagree John and here is why. The two issues of prostitution and Human Trafficking remain hopelessly connected through one common thread; They are BOTH ILLEGAL. If we legalize prostitution, we remove that common bond and provide victims of Human Trafficking with a route of escapt that they do not currently have, Law Enforcement. Now; do I think that somehow legalizing will magically end all corruption everywhere, the very idea is preposterous. According to some people on here; if we legalize prostitution, it has to somehow make trafficking disappear overnight, completely end police corruption world wide, immediately result in clean, safe, brothels with workers that have NO chance of getting an std or being harmed by a client. This is not only unrealistic, it is plain stupid!! It is like saying an airline pilot should have a zero chance of being involved in a plane crash, or because it is legal to purchase and drive an automobile, there is a zero chance that it will ever hurt you. The illogical rantings of the few who are profoundly offended by the fact that someone like Alexa might CHOOSE to become a prostitute are easy to see here. They simply want to end something which has offended them for years and they are attempting to use Human Trafficking as an excuse to do it without realizing that it is impossible to stop it as long as prostitution itself remains illegal.

I want to correct a statement I made in an earlier comment: "Like men who rape, those who pay for sex from these women - who must clearly not be happy and healthy - do not think of sex as an act of love, but one of power."  By " these women," I was referring to those who are coerced, to one degree or another, not to highly paid sex workers.

Some do in fact work in the field by choice, though there's often a degree or history of abuse or force in their lives. Alexa, who speaks for herself, ought not to speak for the large percentage of street prostitutes who do start out as runaway and/or abused adolescents and/or those addicted to drugs, as well as those trafficked from other countries - not to mention those who are mentally ill, homeless, alcoholic, etc. As a social worker, I found that such girls, boys, and women often have histories of childhood abuse; I also found that police themselves were often (I'm sure not always) abusive toward prostitutes, so I tend to discount their overall credibility as a source.

SO:  If we're going to distinguish between the trafficked & the willing prostitutes, we must make a 3rd distinction between the willing & eager and those for whom coercion is/was a factor -- something which many researchers in the field (and commenters on this blog) contend, but which those who favor legalizing tend to ignore or to simply deny without documentation.

And speaking of comments, I'm appalled by the frequent use of sarcasm, the tone of contempt, even sneering, on the part of many, particularly those of you who are so dismissive of the clear degree of knowledge & expertise (well-documented) on Amanda's part, as well as of the heartfelt attempts of Sarah (or Susan) to persuade you to be open to their well-researched arguments. Instead, you continue to be patronising, at times even walk a fine line in your attempts to discuss personal sexuality with her/them in this blog.  By doing so, you actually fuel the argument that sexism is inherent in your point of view, just as you do when you argue that the male sex drive is almost beyond individual control (!). 

Again, there are more than 2 extreme options here: a third is to change the laws which criminalize prostitutes and make it illegal only for traffickers & pimps (to buy and sell people) -- and for anyone who has sex with children. (I think It should also be illegal for Johns who knowingly have sex with coerced prostitutes, but that would be too difficult to enforce.) 

PS please spell separate correctly!   

Why would a man pay for sex if he wasn't desperate and that was the only avenue available to satisfy his desperation?  Why would a women sell it if not for the same reasons?  In both cases desperation is the driving force behind their choices.

I continue to be amazed at the abject cluelessness people like you exhibit when you talk about this.  I mean just unabashed ignorance. Wow.

Some men pay for it because they're on the road all the time and don't have time to spend trying to find someone in a bar, or to develop relationships with women, etc.  Some men enjoy the risks associated with hiring a prostitute. Some men pay for it because their wives/girlfriends won't have sex with them.  Some men pay for it because they have trouble developing real relationships with women and need a release.

Desperation?  Do you think Hugh Grant was "desperate" when he picked up a hooker while he was in the relationship with Liz Hurley?  I mean, really? Please tell me you're not that ignorant. 

And the vast majority of women who do sex work see it as just another in a list of viable work possibilities.  They may be "desperate" to make money to live off of, but I *highly* doubt you'd be so concerned with their desperation if they worked in ANY other line of work.  Many sex workers make far more money doing sex work than anything else they could do.  I know tons of women who left productive jobs to become sex workers.

It is quite obvious you've never spent any time whatsoever actually doing any research on this subject.  Jeez.

No, What you are offended by is the very idea that a man would pay a woman to have sex with her or that she would agree to such an arrangement. But you are forgetting one very important detail. It is HER body to do with as she chooses. You, me, the government, or Joe blow from Idaho has NO SAY in the matter!! So let me ask you. What WOULD you advocate for the man who is desperately in need and this is his only avenue? Cut it off? Rape a woman instead of paying for sex? Find a dark corner and masturbate?

It is very clear to me and several others on here what people like you and Amanda are against and trafficking, kidnapping, forced prostitution, and the brutality that comes with these things is not it. Clearly; you have no more sympathy for the women being beaten, terrorized and murdered every day than a stone. All I have been saying is that in order to stop this behavior, we need to stand united and that is never going to happen as long as we argue over the petty little things like a woman doing it of her own free will. That is NOT what I am against and NOT what I am trying to put a stop to. That is your own personal bias and until you, and many others can learn to separate your emotions from a common sense solution, I guess these poor women will simply go on being beaten, threatened, murdered, terrorized, and forced to perform sex AGAINST THEIR WILL!!! That is the key differentiating factor to me. If it is being done against their will, then it is wrong. If they are doing it willingly, then it is not wrong. Ok?

I absolutely agree Shelley. You pegged it. The women who fall prey to the merciless traffickers need our help NOW!! They don't need us on here whining for the next 3 years about our petty moral grievances with the prostitution trade in general.

First of all Ishe; having sex IS an ability. For those who do it willingly, the better they are at it, the more they can charge for their services. Secondly; for many folks, sex IS necessary to survive. If you don't believe that grab a dictionary and look up the word: "nymphomaniac" Please note that in the dictionary this term is applied Specifically to WOMEN. Wonder why that is? Hmmmm? Could it be because ALL men are nympho's? Perhaps Alexa can shed some light on this. Once again however; Logic, reason and facts prevail.

Look up "self restraint" and "integrity" in the dictionary.

Alexa; Are you a U.S citizen?  If so; will you help me start a petition to Congress and the United Nations to enact tougher international trafficking laws and legalize the consensual sale of sex to protect women who ARE being trafficked? I will sign it and state the reasons why I feel it is important to pass this legislation. I am quite sure a few others on here will sign it also and that is a beginning. We can go from there and see how it goes. That is all I know of to do unless you have a better idea. As I have previously stated, when women all over the world are being held against their will and forced to do what you do willingly being beaten, threatened, raped repeatedly, and many times killed if they do not comply, talk is cheap. I want action.

Oh the ignorance never ceases to amaze me. And I am NOT name calling. I mean true ignorance of the human sex drive. Can you stop a tornado with your bare hands? How about a hurricane? How about a gentle summer breeze? No? Then you cannot stop the sex drive of any human being, male or female. Because it is a part of NATURE!! Get it? Not Human nature but all of nature. Ok? Do you understand now? Self restraint? Why don't you try going a month without going to the bathroom? See how that works out. And integrity doesn't even figure into it my dear. Because the human sex drive is a NATURAL PHENONOMON. It is not like stealing someone's Corvette just because you wanted one and couldn't afford to buy your own. This is a natural bodily function that is akin to the urge to urinate. What was that old song: "When that lonesome feeling comes knocking on my door, I'll call my borrowed angel, to ease the pain once more." I believe that was old country singer Mel Street.

It is actually very easy to kill someone's sexual drive. A few months of rape might do it.

The male equivalent of nymphomania is satyriasis. Perhaps why there are not many male nymphos.

These days they talk more about fear of intimacy or sexual addiction, though, than either of the older terms.

Unfortunately you are wrong again. A few months of rape might kill someone's EMOTIONAL sex drive but nothing can ever stop the PHYSICAL sex drive short of removing or disabling the organs in which it originates. Why do you think some third world countries deliberately mutilate a woman's genitalia? It is to reduce her sexual pleasure so she will remain faithful to her husband. Do some research will you before you get on here and start spouting off regarding things about which you are clueless.

Yes Yes, satyriasis. I know. It is quite common and I have no clue what you meant by your last statement. Fear of intimacy occurs in both men and women and so does sexual addiction. So what's your point?

How do you think you got here Alexa? Transporter beam?

Perhaps you should go back an re-read what I said.  I said sex wasn't necessary for MY (as an individual person) survival, unlike all of those other activities.

Probably twice your age.

sex is between people.

So are a great many other avocations in the service industries.  What's your point?

I see the mods are getting selective in what they delete now.  I'll continue to repost my words unless and until you start deleting comments from Ishe and the others as well

"Probably twice your age."

@Alexa

"I said sex wasn't necessary for MY survival"

Sex was responsible for your existance here.  YOU are making it responsible for your economic survival.  I'd consider that a pretty desperate use of the sexual function.

It takes some maturity to get my point.

"Legalizing prostitution is a mute point when it comes to trafficking because unless there is a 'zero tolerance' option by the law enforcement agencies against the traffickers, then there will still be people forced into sex slavery......and.. the enforcement agencies need to recognize that the victims are just that - victims....  not criminals"

Another example of just how uninformed many people are. MSNBC ran a special documentary of the subject of trafficking last year. The sad fact is that many police officers will threaten to arrest a prostitute unless she gives them sexual favors. So in the case of a girl who has been trafficked and is in fear for her life from her brutal captors, and who maybe has seconds to explain her case before they catch up with her, do you really think the police are going to help her as long as the profession itself remains illegal??

How about "as long as prostitution remains a profession"

Danielle, I'm surprised that you see porn and stripping differently from prostitution, especially if you've been reading the research. It's often the same people, and all of it crosses the line into psychologically and physically unsafe territory. (So so sex scenes in film and tv, even though a lot of it is faked.) In an office job, it would be sexual harassment. So why is it ok in a different job description?

(And I think people in sex work tend to see it as all basically the same, too.)

   Wow, that was quite a tirade Danielle. Since you tossed my name in there I feel honor bound to respond.

"Alexa, Mike, Matthew, Timothy, Jack, Scott: After reading all of your pro-legalization comments I have a headache and I feel like I'm gonna throw up."

   You might want to go and see a specialist about that.

"It literally makes me sick to know that some people out there are so adamant in an entirely selfish, self-serving, conceited, greedy, and morally corrupt ideology."

It makes you sick because you think sex is dirty. I'm guessing morally repressive Catholic upbringing, followed by rebellious period of reckless abandon, then guilt and depression period resulting finally in your current anger state.

"I have counterpoints for every argument you guys make in this debate."

   Would that be the ranting and raving below?

"First, how can you saw we can't legislate morality? ALL of the basic fundamental laws are based on morals. Why is it against the law to kill someone? Because it's thought to be morally wrong. But people still kill and murder others all the time. Does that mean we should just make it legal?"

   No, Danielle, we don't kill because it harms another person, deprives them of their life and liberty.  When someone says morality should not be legislated we are referring to the victimless crimes like drugs, gambling, and prostitution.

"I suppose we should go ahead and make heroin and crack-cocaine legal too?"

   Yes, they are victimless crimes.

"And maybe we should legalize theft and robbery, because those laws are just based on the moral concept that it's wrong to steal, and according to you guys we cant legislate based on morality. And besides, people steal all the time anyway. We might as well just make it legal so as not to make them feel bad about what they do."

   If you can't see the difference between taking something that is not yours and making a consensual deal then maybe you should just stay indoors and out of trouble.

"WAKE UP! Prostitution is NOT a victimless crime."

   Um, yes. It is. Again back to that sex is a bad thing argument. It's not. You are repressed. YOU WAKE UP! Throw off the mental chains, break the bonds of Victorian Era thinking. Live and let live. Love and let love.

"And Alexa I did check out your website and I read through the stories on it. I found it very informative, though not in a way that would change my mind about prostitution. I actually found some stories that only reinforce the idea that something is wrong here."

   It's your viewpoint Danielle that leads you to this conclusion. I looked over the same site and it seemed like people doing their own thing for their own reasons. Nothing wrong with that.  Apparently it offends your new found sensibilities.

"And furthermore, if you are so proud of your line of work and such an advocate of it, then why dont you show your face? Same with you, Mike?"

   I can't speak for them but I show no picture because I don't have one on my computer. Never been too vain.

"I dont know about you guys, but I have nothing to hide."

   What a monumental conclussion jump that is. You can't say something is the reason for another thing and make it so. Maybe they are new to the site or just hadn't taken the time to upload. Jeez!

"You can start your petition to legalize, but I guarantee there will be way more people who are against it!"

   How could you possibly guarantee anything of the sort? What you mean is: "I sure hope my point of view is vindicated by the majority."

"If any of you actually bothered to do some research on countries where it's legal, then you would see that in most all cases it has NOT made the work any safer, and it has NOT reduced trafficking. In fact, the majority of prostitutes in some countries where it has been legalized are trafficking victims."

   In your mind I'm sure that's true. You consider all sex trade workers to be trafficked and that would pretty much constitute a majority. Research has to be done at more than just sources that agree with your narrow viewpoint.

"All of you claim to be against trafficking, but are any of you actively working to put an end to trafficking? It seems to me like your top concern is 1.) making money for yourself through sex work and 2.) having access to sex on demand and commercial sex instantly and always available and at your whim. "

   Wow, are you shallow. I've been happily married for 20 years with children and grandchildren. The fact that you think only perverts would support legalization shows the level of your sexually repressed mental perversion.

"I have only been involved in researching and fighting trafficking for about 4 years."

   Consisting of what? What do you feel you have accomplished? Have you personally stormed the gates of an illegal chicken ranch in Argentina? What have you done???

"Before that I used to believe that the majority of people in prostitution did it because they wanted to."

   You were right.

"I heard stories about trafficking but like most people I just didnt believe it, or I thought 'well that's their life, not mine'."

   Again I say, how shallow.

"For the most part, I have Libertarian political views."

  Ah, that explains a lot. How are Rush, and Shawn, and Dr. Savage these days.

"At one point when I was young and naive I did think prostitution should be legal, as well as drugs."

   Only the young and naive could possibly think that.

"But with more research, I now realize the fallacy in those beliefs. I'm no Bible-waving religious zealot claiming innocence and purity."

   So you're a bible-waving religious zealot just without the innocence and purity?

"I've smoked marijuana before, I've tried a line of coke."

   Danielle, shame on you, what would sister Mary Catherine say?

"I once made a guy give me $200 (for an std test) after sex. Thats probably the closest I've ever come to prostitution, and yes it DID make me feel better about the situation."

   OMG!!!  Oh no she didn't. Well, I think that makes you quite the hypocrite Danielle. An STD test does not cost $200.

"But it doesnt mean that anything about that situation was right!"

   You were enjoying yourself at the time and now you're in guilt induced denial.

"Do I think that drugs and prostitution should be legal, just because I might benefit from it?"

   You mean if it were legal you'ld use drugs and sell your body for money? How would you benefit again?

"NO! YOU HAVE TO DRAW THE LINE SOMEWHERE!"

   And you decide where? If not you then who? Father Bob and Cardinal Bill?

"Pornography and stripclubs are legal. Tobacco and alcohol are legal. Should prostitution and hard drugs be legal? NO!"

   I'm sensing a recurring theme here.

"First of all porn stars and strippers, on principle, do NOT have sex in exchange for money with any and all willing to pay."

   It's not on principle. It's because the club owners watch them like a hawk until they're off property. And who knows what they do then.

"So you cant really compare prostitution to stripping and porn, you cant put it in the same category. At least I dont."

   You seem to be the only one suggesting that Danielle.

"But if strippers are doing contact sex acts for money, then they are prostitutes! Its a fine line, but once again - you have to draw the line somewhere!"

   Um, no. It's a very clear line. Sexual services for money = prostitution.

"You really need to understand the context of prostitution from a sociological viewpoint. If you really studied it, I mean REALLY did your homework, I think most people would come to the conclusion that it should be illegal."

   So you like have a degree in prostitution sciences or what?  Because you clearly don't understand anything from a sociological viewpoint.

"I'm sure there are women who choose that as a line of work and are happy. But it's a small minority."

   Again your ignorance of reality is hanging out.  Millions worldwide choose that lifestyle because they like it. You tried it and didn't like it so you can't see how anyone else possibly could.

"Any prostitute I've ever known or seen either has a drug addiction, is desperate for money, has been abused, or has emotional/psychological issues."

   Known a lot of them have you? Where do you hang out? And whether they have any of those above conditions they are still making their own choices and throwing them in jail for it serves no good purpose.

"Or maybe is just greedy for money and thinks her only value as a person is her sexual services.I mean if it's truly such a great profession to be in, then why dont you want your mom or your daughter doing that?"

   That would be their choice. And my sister is an escort.

"Why don't they offer classes in college for it?"

   Um, it's illegal or that would be a good idea.

"Why didnt the Bush twins aspire to start their own outcall service? Why doesnt Prince William become a male escort, you know as a learning experience, to add to his resume, and because it's so lucrative."

   Um, I'm just going to ignore that nonsense.

"Look, the reality is there is NOTHING good about having sex with 2 to 10 different strangers a day just for money."

   Speak for yourself:) And how would you know if you never tried it? And if you have, well...

"People that you would not ever be having sex with if not for them giving you money."

   Yeah, that's why they are willing to pay. Duh.

"Have we all forgotten that the main purpose of sex is procreation?!"

   Main purpose is not only purpose.

"And dont even try to say it's not."

   OK

"Yes, pleasure is important."

   Just not to you, huh?

"But the whole purpose of sex is procreation."

   Another recurring theme.

"Pleasure and intimacy are byproducts of that."

   Very observant.

"Sex is for relationships and there is a good reason for that, anything else is just being selfish and greedy."

????????????????

"And that is why it will NEVER be right to sell or buy sex, not to mention the inherent risk of std's from being with so many different people! You can say you use condoms, but you can get all the same std's from oral sex too. And it is about so much more than just "the need for sexual release". It's about not thinking of people as human beings and instead treating them as merely sex objects to be used for your own selfish wants and discarded at your whim. It's as if people only focus on the pleasure aspect of sex, while ignoring the necessary maturity and responsibility that goes along with it."

   Wow, what a mouthful of opinionated rubbish.

"They say 'men dont see much of a difference between a hooker and a hookup'. While I believe that's why money is exchanged for sex with a hooker (to eliminate the guilt and feelings), I DO think that there's a BIG difference between having sex with a hooker/hooking up and being in a "real" long-term mutual sexual relationship.'

  No-one is arguing that.

"I suggest reading Victor Malarek's book The Natashas and his new book The Johns."

   The only good advice so far.

"Yes, I AM against prostitution."

   No duh.

"I believe it is inseparably connected to sex trafficking."

   But then you would, wouldn't you?

"Without the demand for commercial sex, there would be NO sex trafficking!!!!!"

   How true that is but lets grow up. You cannot kill the sexual desires of man no matter how hard you might close yours eyes at night and wish it.  So it follows that legalization would provide easier alternatives.

"The demand for commercial sex drives the crime of sex trafficking. They ARE connected!"

   The demands for commercial sex by a minority of men who have no scruples, pride, or respect are the motivation. Perhaps a legal alternative is in order?

"And I am so angry and disgusted with all of these pro-legalizationers."

   Of course you are.

"Your ideology is flawed, it's ignorant, self-serving, and it's WRONG!"

   That is of course your opinion and must therefore represent the rest of humankind.

"For women who want to revel in being proud prostitutes, and boast about making thousands of dollars, opening their legs and mouths to any and all men willing to pay a little money, well at the end of the day - you're still just a whore."

   Wow, are we worked up with self-righteous indignation!

"Now I've never been a whore,"

   Um, wait a minute, but, didn't you say you took money after sex?

"but I've been called one many times by people who apparently dont know the meaning of the word. (that's someone who gives sex to strangers in exchange for money)."

   Apparently you don't know the meaning of the word, it is not required to be strangers.

"And I am very offended and feel in danger when I am walking in a certain section of my city, dressed in an electrical workers uniform to do electrical work for my job, and I get propositioned by at least 5 different men and sexually harrassed by men and offered money for sex, because it is an area where there are prostitutes and a strip club. Now if legalization means more of that, I will spend my whole life fighting against it!"

   Maybe it's just because you're hot.

"And most importantly, if legalization means more sex businesses opening up and more demand for commercial sex, and therefore more people being trafficked and being FORCED or COERCED into situations of slavery, rape, and abuse - then I will always be an advocate of repealing legalization and a diehard supporter of keeping it illegal."

   Your argument is simply not born out by the facts.

"One of the biggest problems in tackling trafficking now is that the laws arent being enforced."

   Finally, agreement.

"Until recently it wasnt even recognized as a crime. And slavery, abuse, unlawful imprisonment, and rape is REALLY what trafficking is."

   Again, we agree.

"But the criminals are never charged with any of those."

   Should have known we couldn't make three in a row. They in fact are charged routinely around the world.

"THE LAWS ARENT EVEN BEING ENFORCED!!!!! And you guys want to legalize! What we need to do is start enforcing the laws that exist, on trafficking AND on prostitution!"

   You are so confused.

"I advocate for adopting the prostitution laws of Sweden, where the purchasing of sex is a crime and it IS enforced. It seems to be working for Sweden, where both prostitution and trafficking are minimal."

   How about the prostitution laws of Islam? Kill them all and be done with it? That ought to satisfy your guilt driven paranoia.

For the record Timothy, I dont think sex is dirty and I am neither repressed nor confused.

And FYI, a complete STD test is actually a LOT more than $200 here in the U.S. if you dont have health insurance and want to go to a private doctor instead of a clinic - it's about $500.

I wont waste my time counterpointing the rest of your personal attacks against me since they are based on your assumptions and biased opinions.

There are two arguments here: one is for legalization, the other is against it.

Then there are two different types of data and information to back up each person's stance: one is opinions and the other is the facts.

I have tried to present a wide range of FACTS regarding this topic, along with my personal opinion and experiences as well.

As we all know, all of these factors come into play when people are deciding for or against a serious issue. But I do believe the FACTS are the most important data here. And so far all I have heard from the pro-legalization camp are their personal experiences and opinions as well as personal attacks on those who are against it, and NOT many facts or independent unbiased research.

The most independent, unbiased research worldwide on this topic clearly shows that legalization will not help to reduce the crime of trafficking, and in many cases only makes it worse and more prevalent. And many surveys and polls have shown that the majority (from 60% to 85%) of Americans do NOT support legalizing prostitution.

Just out of curiosity Timothy, you say you've been married for 20 years - how is your sex life? Do you patronize prostitutes or have you ever in the past? If so, for what reason? Your honest answers to these questions could bring more facts to the cause.

Actually, I challenge everyone on here that is advocating for legalization to answer these questions.

"Alexa, Mike, Matthew, Timothy, Jack, Scott: After reading all of your pro-legalization comments I have a headache and I feel like I'm gonna throw up. It literally makes me sick to know that some people out there are so adamant in an entirely selfish, self-serving, conceited, greedy, and morally corrupt ideology"

And therein lies the entire problem Danielle and the reason we will probably make a serious dent in the trade of trafficking. Because people like you are too wrapped up in their own self-righteous morality. This is the whole problem in a nutshell. Until people learn to separate IMMORAL from ILLEGAL, there will be no progress. I am sorry to inform the poor ladies who are being held captive, many kept handcuffed to something so they cannot escape, beaten, raped, tortured, and murdered, that Danielle, Amanda, Ishe, and several others on here are BLOCKING efforts to help them with MORAL stigmas and stereotypes. Sorry ladies. I tried and so did Alexa, Timothy, Matt, and several others but we are constantly barraged with attacks on our personal morality and integrity because we advocate for something which may actually work. The status quo, quite obviously, is not. So I guess you girls will just have to suffer through it the best you can and try not to get killed, although it really doesn't matter because you will be ruined for life when they are through with you anyway so you may just as well be dead. Again; I apologize sincerely for the people who just cannot bring themselves to separate MORALITY from LEGALITY!! I wish I could do more to help you.

Alright Danielle, I like a little verbal sparring as much as the next guy but you have crossed a line. How is my sex life? You must believe that I'm sexually deprived and slobbering on my bib overalls just waiting for prostitution to become legal. My sex life is as good as can be expected at 50 and after 20 of marriage. "Do I patronize prostitutes?"  No. "Have I ever?" Once. Very unsatisfying and left me feeling hollow. (Was I married? No.) 

   "For what reason?"  Are you just messing with me? I was young, dumb, and full of ...  You think by asking these questions that you will force an introspective meltdown and I'll reveal I'm a sex-crazed lunatic and prove once and for all that is the only type of man who could possibly support the legalization of prostitution. Whew, that was a keyboard full.

   Look, all this hyperbole is merely a smoke screen to obfuscate the true argument.  All that data you're pushing is unreliable and suspect. In your own words: 

"Then there are two different types of data and information to back up each person's stance: one is opinions and the other is the facts."

  And who decides which side is which? I can come up with and complete a study or poll that comes out concluding any hypothesis you choose. That doesn't make them valid. But, these side arguments, as I said, only serve to cloud the issues.

   There are two. Prostitution legalization. And. Human trafficking.

   We have to resolve one issue to make the other issue clearer.  Stop treating people, fellow human beings, as objects you can lock up and abuse to satisfy your craving for morality. You are then no better than the traffickers who do the exact same thing in answer to a different craving.

WOW!! Thanks for the terrific backup Alexa. Well spoken and very articulate. Great Post!!

Yes I too meant to say, and forgot, that murder is hurting another person. The consensual sale of sex hurts who exactly? And there will always be a demand for commercial sex. But I've got a bet for Danielle and all who hold her bias. How much are you willing to bet that if we really enforce the laws against prostitution and make it so they cannot operate, the number of rape crimes doubles or worse; triples in the next few years? I hope you are willing to bet a lot because, Alexa correct me if I'm wrong, but you cannot stop that which is nature. Maybe Danielle should spend a little less time studying prostitution and a little more time studying the human sex drive.

Alexa, I really don't care what you personally do for a living. If you're so set on high-end prostitution, why not emigrate to Canada where it's legal? Or even just come up on a working tourist visa for a year and try it out?

What I object to is promoting prostitution in a general way, given that, according to the peer-reviewed scientific research I've read, most people in prostitution are in really bad shape, and that, in my own personal experience, people who pay for sex aren't that discriminating. I mean, if they cared about consent, there'd be no market for sex trafficking.

why not emigrate to Canada where it's legal?

You mean, why don't I leave my home just to go somewhere else to do something I should be able to do here?  Why don't you move somewhere where it is illegal and there's no human trafficking? Then you can rest easy at night and not worry about what I'm doing.

according to the peer-reviewed scientific research I've read, most people in prostitution are in really bad shape,

There has been no significant research into private prostitution, only street-based prostitution.  Street based prostitution constitutes about 10% of the total number of paid sexual transactions on any given day.  I don't disagree that most street based prostitution is done by people who need to be off the streets.  They're not trafficked, though, by and large (most are doing survival sex - paying for a drug habit, paying house notes, etc.), so that's not even germane to the point at hand in Amanda's post here.

and that, in my own personal experience, people who pay for sex aren't that discriminating.

And your experience would be what?  I can assure you someone paying $200 - $4000 an hour for sex is going to be very discriminating. Again, I highly suspect your "experience" is extremely limited.

Why Canada? Why not simply go to Nevada? It is legal there and is still in the U.S. Then again, why should Alexa or anyone else have to go anywhere at all to practice their trade? Why don't we move all used car salesmen to Idaho seeing as how they are mostly all deceitful anyhow? This is the stupid, baseless, irrational logic that is preventing women who are in serious jeopardy of being severely beaten, raped, and/or killed from receiving help? What a bunch!! I cannot HELP but wonder if any of you were in their shoes, would you still be debating the morality of legalizing prostitution or would you be screaming: "I DO NOT CARE JUST PLEASE HELP ME; SOMEBODY, ANYBODY!!!" 

When your captors walk into the room with whips and clubs and you immediately shit yourself because you KNOW what's coming. Would you be worrying about what Alexa does then? I think not.

Alexa, I actually don't want you emigrating to Canada, and yes, I can see your point. You shouldn't have to move. I did have to move because I had to get away from where I was trafficked and start over. I can't leave the country because I'm disabled and indigent, but at least I can hide out at the other end of the country until a bunch of people die off.

On the other hand, as long as you are under 30, can work, and don't have a criminal record, you can get working tourist visas or working holiday visas to all sorts of countries, including Canada, Australia, and New Zealand, that will let you work for a year, give you a chance to see what other countries are like, see the world without having to be rich. (It looks like Americans can't do this in the UK, Germany or the Netherlands, though.) I have no idea what they'd say if you told them you wanted to do sex work, but perhaps it wouldn't be any of their business. And you could do first hand research, see what it's really like in some of these meccas. I have no idea what you'd think.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_holiday_visa

"If a guy can pay for any kind of sex he wants whenever he wants it, how am I supposed to compete with that? I cant. I have no leverage."

Awwww!! Maybe you'll just have to lose some of those inhibitions and start really turning up the heat in the bedroom. Of course; your real leverage is that it is free and there is almost no chance he will contract an std. This next statement of yours shows your true ignorance of men. 

 "And they will also tend to have a lot less sex with their girlfriends/wives. This all adds up to a hell of a lot of broken relationships, broken hearts, broken families,"

Ummm; I hate to break it to you Danielle, but the two primary reasons MOST guys hire a prostitute in the first place is 1) They do not HAVE a wife or girlfriend and 2) Their wife or girlfriend is not holding up HER end of the bargain in bed.

This is the real world and just saying, "I say old bean, would you mind awfully just keeping that piece there zipped up? There's a good fellow." is going to work you need to think again.

   How about something just a little more realistic.

   I don't think it's any great revelation that men have the stronger sex drive, so... duh.

What more can you expect from a "supersize me" culture not used to boundaries or being denied.

Actually Tim, scientific research has proven that both men and women have the same sex drive. It is a sweepingly ignorant generalization and an outright lie to say that men have a stronger sex drive. It may vary for each individual, but not based on their gender as you imply.

Danielle is absolutely correct on this one. It is based on the individual's DNA and is determined by hormonal growth/balance and many other factors. It has nothing to do with gender. It has however; been the general consensus for many years that if one is going to think more about consenting to sex, it would be the female. Most men do not say NO to a sexual encounter when offered to them. Why this is I am not sure but I suspect it has something to do with the lack of offers and the length of time in between offers. We tend to think in more realistic terms on a daily basis. For example; the thought might cross a man's mind upon being hit on by a woman: "Gee; It HAS been a while and; what if I get hit by a bus and die tomorrow? At least I'll go out happy. So; Yeah, sure; Why Not."

Here is the link Susan.

http://www.change.org/ideas/view/legalize_and_regulate_prostitution

Susan, Thank you so much for signing the petition to legalize prostitution. If we can get this done it will drive a wedge in between the traffickers and their captives because the women will finally have the law on their side. An option that does not currently exist. It is especially important to have people like you on board, educators and such, because our politicians don't do a very good job these days of listening to just ordinary folk. So I, and the women who need our help, thank you with a heart full of gratitude.

I am advocating for the FULL legalization of the consensual sale of sex in order to drive a wedge in between the traffickers and their business. The one thing prostitution has in common with trafficking is  BOTH are currently illegal. This makes it darn near impossible for a victim of trafficking to go to law enforcement because she is regarded as just another hooker and treated accordingly. Legalizing the consensual industry will separate it from the Slave industry thus shining a light on both and making it possible to shut the slave industry down if the proper laws are enacted and strictly enforced. It is the only way. But as I have said repeatedly; Legalizing ALONE will not stop trafficking. We have seen this time and time again. There needs to be tough, efficient, follow up of procedures and licenses and they MUST be strictly enforced. I am also advocating for much tougher laws against traffickers and much stiffer penalties for those who are caught. If it were up to me, I would give a trafficker who was not found guilty of murder a mandatory 25 years in prison with no deals and no parole. If found guilty of murdering a woman; An automatic Life Sentence. Now; Tell me you disagree with that. However; as long as prostitution as a whole remains illegal, none of this can ever take place because, in the minds of law enforcement officials, they are one in the same. Separation by legality is required to make this work.

John, I absoluely agree however, there is one way that prostitution as a whole is tied to trafficking and that is they are both currently illegal. The best way to separate them is to make one of them legal. Which would you prefer? If we legalize the consensual sale of sex, we drive a wedge in between the traffickers and their business. Anyone remember divide and conquer? This is my theory and there seem to be a few women who have been victims of trafficking who agree with me.

Mike, have you bothered to do any comparative research on this at all? Perhaps there are a few women who have been victims of trafficking who agree with you. I dont doubt that. But ask the hundreds of women who have been trafficked to Germany, the Netherlands, and Israel- beaten, held in bondage, and coerced into prostitution, all occurring in countries where prostitution is fully legal and regulated - ask them if they believe legalization made a difference in their lives. If it made any difference, it was only for the worse.

Read "A Crime So Monstrous" by Benjamin Skinner, who investigated and researched trafficking cases around the world. A girl named Tatiana was trafficked to Amsterdam (where prostitution is legal, regulated, and celebrated the way YOU advocate it should be here in U.S.), she was beaten by her traffickers and forced to work as a prostitute. The police ignored her. When she escaped on her own, her traffickers eventually got hold of her and almost murdered her. This happened in a country where prostitution is fully legal.

If you would actually DO the research and educate yourself on the issue instead of coming to your own misguided and ill-informed conclusions, then you would accept the fact that legalizing prostitution does NOTHING to help trafficking victims and almost always makes trafficking worse and more prevalent.

http://prostitution.procon.org/viewresource.asp?resourceID=000772

For anyone who has been mistreated or ignored by law enforcement, wrongfully arrested or even abused by the police: I understand that pain and how devastating it can be. There are corrupt people everywhere, including some of the police.

That's where things need to change, at the level of law enforcement and how they deal with the crimes of trafficking, rape, unlawful imprisonment, and abuse.

But we are a nation that still holds people accountable. If you call the police and they mistreat you, call 911 on them and report it. Dont give up. Report them, get local news channels and local politicians involved. Sue them if you must. Make the police accountable for their actions.

Corruption does not have to continue as long as we refuse to let it happen!

But coming to the conclusion that fully legalizing prostitution is the only answer to solve police corruption and mishandling of victims is the WRONG conclusion.

Please, just do the research.

Great link Danielle!! Btw, I just bought "A Crime So Monstrous". I'm in the process of reading my forth book on trafficking this year and I look forward to getting Skinner's point of view as well. I think it will be a valuable resource.

Kidnapping is a crime. So is rape, murder, theft, assault, DUI, and several others that I cannot think of right now. But my point is Danielle, these are crimes in my book because they HURT OTHER PEOPLE!!! However; because these things are crimes, doesn't mean they never happen. Ok? Our jails are full of people who thought they could get away with it. So the traffickers will be exposed and they will get caught but it does not mean that it will never happen. Just like any other crime, trafficking will be reduced drastically but it does not mean that it will end completely.

I have done the research Danielle. Have you ever seen the MSNBC documentary: "Sex Slaves in America?"  First of all; I care what happens to women around the world but that begins right here at home. When a girl of 13 can be taken off the street in Florida, by force, held captive, beaten, raped, and forced to engage in prostitution against her will, that is a crime. Prostitution the way Alexa does it is not a crime. There are no victims. That is the difference. When you remove the criminal aspect of CONSENSUAL prostitution from the equation, all you have left to arrest and hold accountable are those who sell it illegally. Not one woman who has been trafficked has ever done so willingly Danielle. Separate willing from un-willing and it is clear to see that one is a crime and the other is not.

Who does the consensual sale of sex hurt Danielle? If it hurts anyone, it would be the woman selling it however; She AGREED to it so that is not our problem or business for that matter. Live and let live.

"Most victims are enticed in "willingly" , however, I heard one story of girls being physicaly "roughed up" . When they called the police they were driven to a mental health facility , medicated and told it didnt happen."

http://humantrafficking.change.org/blog/view/americas_trafficked_children_are_being_arrested_not_rescued

This happened right here in America Danielle. Not in some other country. Right Here in our own backyard. Can't you see how wrong you are.

Here Danielle; This is taken DIRECTLY from the link you sent to me. Have You looked at the statistics from the UAE? Here they are.

"Dubai's Cyclone night club is a typical example of the U.A.E.'s flourishing international sex trade. The massive club, owned by an Indian based in London, is known by visitors as the 'United Nations of prostitution.' On an average night, visitors say, there are possibly as many as 500 prostitutes from as many as two dozen countries -- including Azerbaijan, Bulgaria, China, Russia, Taiwan, Tajikistan, and Uzbekistan.

But Cyclone is hardly the only place in Dubai providing work for prostitutes. You can find them at almost every five-star hotel in the emirate, or even on the streets."

Now Here's The Kicker Danielle.

9. United Arab Emirates

Population: 4,798,491

Prostitution: ILLEGAL
The sharia courts sentence lashings followed by imprisonment.

Brothel Ownership: ILLEGAL

Pimping: ILLEGAL

I REST MY CASE!!!

Looks like Turkey got it right though.

I do not know why my posts are appearing in duplicate but I assure you; I had nothing to do with it.

I mentioned the U.A.E. in one of my previous posts. And I disagree that Turkey "got it right". I dont think they have anything right when it comes to prostitution and human trafficking.

Again, in both countries, the problem seems to be with corruption and lack of enforcement of the laws.

Check out this video for more info on Turkey:

http://www.freedocumentaries.org/film.php?id=161

I mistakenly left out Danielle's name as one who has done extensive research and written passionately on this blog, only to be dismissed and sneered at by the two guys who have so far outlasted her predecessors.  I also left out John, whose comments brought moments of logic to the debate.

In case anyone notes that I did not document MY statements, I did so in my first comment, a century ago, citing NYT columnist Bob Herbert, who writes extensively on these issues; while Amanda(herself an experienced expert) and John have both cited much research on trafficking and child-victim /street prostitutes.  

Until Mike, Dennis, et al. offer up the same extent of quality research, without personal attacks, I'd suggest to Danielle that you let it go; direct your passion toward educating people who are wholly unaware of these issues and their root causes. And tell people who use "the world's oldest profession" as an argument that prostitution (like the poor) will always be with us, that many things have been with us since the "dawn of time," including various & barbaric methods of capital punishment; including rape as a weapon of war; including greed & hatred -- and perhaps they always will be (though more and more countries are opting out of the death penalty).  But how absurd to deduce that we should therefore do nothing as a society to change what we deem to be harmful.

A final word:  I once interviewed a young schizophrenic in solitary confinement who had AIDS; had been self-treating with cocaine & just been arrested for prostitution and resisting arrest. She (could easily be He) had grown up in deep poverty, then come to live in a city rife with violence and drugs, where she was seduced by a dealer/pimp. When I found her she was suicidal, her suffering profound; she had infected who knows how many men with HIV (and they infected who knows how many wives, lovers, prostitutes, in turn). That's probably the most extreme example of many I encountered over the years in which the victims, including babies and children, are countless.   

Nikki; What I am wholly aware of is two things.

One: Law enforcement does not have the authority to discern between bad and worse. Illegal is Illegal; PERIOD! This means the trafficked go to jail along with the traffickers.

Second; I only attack personally those who attack me personally. The research I have is from women who have survived trafficking somehow and are now free to speak their minds. Several of them have signed our petition to legalize consensual prostitution because having been there, they Understand that until people like you and Danielle learn to separate trafficked women from those like Alexa, we will never eradicate trafficking. It doesn't matter what you do. It will always exist because as long as BOTH are kept illegal, the women will keep being afraid to come forward.

Last but not least, I did not see anyone, not Danielle, and not you either, taking me up on my offer to tell Vicki Wyzykowski or Heather Keener they are wrong. These are women who were exposed to trafficking First Hand and are on MY SIDE of the argument. Will there always be men who will take advantage of a woman if conditions are present that allow him the private time? Of course. How naive does anyone have to be to ever think this world can be absolutely perfect no matter what we do? 

And I don't know where on earth you got the idea that I was personally attacking Danielle. I attacked Dennis because he attacked me first. YES I DO have the right to defend myself too; even though I am a man.

What I was referring to Nikki with regard to the victims' experience, was the fact that she Went TO LAW ENFORCEMENT and they WOULD NOT HELP HER!!! Legalize the Consensual sale of sex (the kind Alexa does) and that will change I PROMISE!!

You may do research on prostitution and trafficking until you go blind from reading but how about doing some research on Law Enforcement and their requirements. They simply cannot pick and choose which criminals to arrest. Therefore, as long as prostitution remains illegal, trafficking will go on. That's a promise too. Common sense guarantees it.