End Human Trafficking

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This was in response to Teflon's now deleted comments.

Sorry I missed those comments.  Where they particularly offensive?

They were more obnoxious and childish than anything.  I couldn't take him seriously enough to get offended.  He was spewing venom because he was angry about the Diner's Club's decision to "cave" to "angry feminists."

His theory is that the reason men choose overseas wives because women here are all fat, ugly, angry, lazy, self-centered lesbians.  His junior high-mentality comments became tiresome.  He was on another rant on the original post about Diner's Club's payment plan, so I quit responding to him. 

Just met a woman on Friday who works with immigrant women.  She is Asian, came to the U.S. and got her Master's, and is a survivor of domestic violence.  She was delighted to hear about this story, and that Diner's Club finally decided to do the right thing.  In her work, she helps women every day who are lured here in "dating" relationships through mail-order bride services, then exploited and abused.

One thing that stuck in my mind was her comment about returning to the country of origin after being in one of these marriages.  She said that women who leave their country as mail-order brides and marry men from the U.S. are virtually shunned if they try to return.  Nobody from their own community will marry them, and they are permanently stigmatized by having married a U.S. man.  So that reduces options if a woman is unsafe and needs to leave.

I can't imagine being in a country where few people speak my language, and trying to find resources to get safe, when the rest of my family and friends are on the other side of the world and probably have no money to help out.  Since they are expected to be "traditional" wives, many don't work outside the home, and are isolated financially, socially, culturally, and in many other ways, because they have nobody else here.  This puts them in a very precarious position.  For these reasons, I can see how not only are these women more vulnerable, but often don't report the abuse.

If you're interested, I've posted commenting guidelines here: http://humantrafficking.change.org/blog/view/dear_readers_a_note_on_commenting
This community is a safe space where people can have respectful discussion and debate about these important issues.  At our discretion, we remove comments which are abusive, libelous, off-topic, profane, or which impede other users from participating in the Change.org community.  Please feel empowered to report abusive users.  This should be a safe space for everyone.

I just read your commenting guidelines, and they are more than fair.  I just wish some people could express their opinions without trying to insult other people.  The homophobic, racist, sexist, sizeist, ageist stuff, it's all unnecessary. 

I'm so happy that there is a forum where people can come together and educate, raise awareness, and change the world for the better!  I've learned so much since I've been reading the articles on change.org, and I'm always interested in learning more from people who are willing to treat others with dignity and respect.

Romy Carver write: "One thing that stuck in my mind was her comment about returning to the country of origin after being in one of these marriages.  She said that women who leave their country as mail-order brides and marry men from the U.S. are virtually shunned if they try to return."

I don't know where you get your information but that has not been my experience.  I know four immigrant couples who met through matchmaking services and they're all happilly married and raising children.  Two of them moved back to the Philippines and are productive, happy and fully assimilated into the society, both the husband and wife.  So while I don't doubt your claim that some women from some countries may get shunned if they return after a failed  marriage to an American, it is certainly not universal and across the board, and I have not seen it happen with anyone I know.

Also bear in mind that some countries have a no divorce policy, and people value the original marriage vow as being a lifetime commitment.  It's harder for any divorced woman to find someone than it is for someone who is never-married.  That is especially true in traditional cultures with strong Christian values where chastity and fidelity are highly cherished.

"Where I got my information" was from a woman who works EVERY DAY with marginalized abused immigrant women.  The woman she was referring to in this case was from China, but she emphatically stated that this phenomenom is all over the world, particularly in Asia.  I suppose as an highly educated Asian immigrant woman, who works in the field of helping abused immigrant women and is also an educator, she would know more about this than either you or I. 

Since you refuse to believe that the abuse is taking place, do you really think an abused woman would come to you for help?  If you have doubts, and truly care about women, you could talk sometime with someone who is doing this work.  Find out what is really going on.

I think it's great if four couples you know met online and are happy.  However, what goes on behind closed doors?  Women often hide abuse when they know that if they tell anyone the results could be deadly (for them or their children).  It's a little presumptuous to think you know what goes on inside those marriages.

However, the women this woman works with have broken a strong cultural taboo by breaking the silence.  In spite of isolation by their husbands, they managed to reach out for help, at great risk.  Their lives tell the story of what is really going on. 

As far as evidence, did anyone read the link provided by Amanda on the testimony given before Congress about this issue?  These are not just isolated cases.  If the murder and abuse of women and children is not evidence of the violence, then what is?

The other point I'd like to make is that the abuse is not exclusive to U.S. husbands.  Women from impoverished areas are at risk for exploitation by husbands from other countries too.  So I'm not knocking U.S. men.  I'm knocking men anywhere to bring a bride from across the world because they don't want a woman who has resources or other options.  They want someone they can control.

Did the woman from China meet her American husband by first writing to him via an international dating website?

Honestly, I don't know.  She didn't say, so I didn't ask.  I was more struck by her stories of the women she was helping on a daily basis.  She did say she had been a housewife with no education, and eventually got her Master's degree, and is now conducting trainings and working for a university.  She is a real inspiration.

Suggest that you read "The Road of Lost Innocence" by Somaly Mam.  She is a human trafficking survivor, activist, philanthropist, author, and foundation head and was recently named to Time Magazine's prestigious 100 Most Influential People list. 

Yes I will get that book.  Was Somaly a member of an international dating website?  Just curious. 

No, she was trafficked into prostitution in her home country, but the book does give a good picture of what it can be like to be a woman in Southeast Asia, and the kinds of pressures women face.

Tristan, I wish that the facts behind this story, that women are trafficked via international mail order bride services, were not true.  And this is not just true of Asian women.  Women in the U.S., in Europe, and all over the world are trafficked via what began as a dating relationship. 

It seems that Tristan is denying the link between trafficking into the US and international dating websites based on the lack of hard evidence, proof, facts, etc.  Proof and substantiated facts are not important; only the likelihood of a link is necessary to call for the shutting down of those very offensive websites.

There isn't any actual evidence or proof?

Correct, there is no actual proof of a link between trafficking into the US and international dating websites.  But isn't it obvious?  Look at those sites; read their self-described operating format. It is defacto trafficking.  It is just accepted that is trafficking by community standards and there are plenty of academic studies making that very claim. No proof does not mean no trafficking. Of course, it would be very helpful if actual links to trafficking were presented and I believe if we look hard enough, we will find that proof and evidence.

Okay, no proof. Evidence? Anything other than just conjecture or suspicions?
I've personally known a couple of guys that used those. No, not to traffic people.
I've also run across tales of men getting hustled and ripped off by the women, actually.

You can read testimony given before Congress on the trafficking of mail order brides here: http://foreign.senate.gov/hearings/2004/hrg040713p.html. They give a number of examples of real cases.

Unfortunately, none of those real cases provide any factual evidence that international matchmaking websites traffic women into the US.  It certainly must happen though and we will find the evidence soon since activity is increasing and they cannot hide forever.

I can really tell where your heart is, Hannah.  Your prejudice shows in your posts.

Why do you have such a hate-on for international dating services?  Do you know that a lot of women from Southeast Asia and Latin America also advertise in Match.com, Yahoo Personals, many newspaper personals columns and singles clubs like Christian Singles International?  Thay also used to (and may still) advertise in the Sheela Wood column, a personals column published in several supermarket magazines.

You simply cannot claim that something exists that is clearly not factual.  In order for someone to be trafficked they must be

a. Coerced or forced against their will.

-or-

b. Lured into something by fraud and deceit, and then held against their will.

How can you make the case that a personal introduction service where people freely place and answer ads fits this criteria?  It is simply not possible for people to be trafficked this way. 

Paying a fee for the right to place a message on a board is not the same as paying a fee to have your marriage arranged.  If you think a business should be shut down simply becuase it allows people to place and answer personal ads, then you are so against free-speech that you violate the very foundation of our democracy.

Slumjack, I hope you will reconsider withholding your support from something which can make literally a life or death difference for women and children.

Here are some excerpts from the senate hearings:

"There have been documented cases of photographs being used on marriage agency web sites without the women's knowledge or permission. In one case, a model, whose nude pictures appeared in an American online catalogue claimed that a photographer, for whom she had worked, sold the pictures without her permission to the marriage agency, along with her address and phone number. Upon investigation, the owner of a modelling agency that specialized in pornography admitted that he sold nude photographs of women to the marriage agency."

"On marriage agency web sites offering women from Asia and Eastern Europe, I found blatant and subtle marketing of children for sexual purposes.  One mail-order-bride agency from the Philippines had 19 girls aged 17 or younger."

"Several of the marriage agencies offering women from Russia, Ukraine and Moldova have underage girls listed as correspondents or future wives. A marriage agency in Chisinau, Moldova had a 14 year old girl; an agency located in Kherson, Ukraine had girls listed as being 15 and 16 years of age; another Ukrainian agency had contact addresses for girls aged 10, 14, and 16. And an agency in Odessa, Ukraine had contact information for several underage girls (aged 10, 12, 14 and 15) and a boy (aged 15)."

"One marriage agent offering women and girls from the Philippines complained on his web site that the US government will not allow his youngest brides on offer, who are under age 16, into the country. "The service itself is not restricted by the American government, although they are real picky about getting your bride into the states-they won't give a visa to a bride under age sixteen." "

"There are also marriage agencies offering introduction services and pornography of women with disabilities. One site from Russia markets women with missing limbs. The services are marketed to men with fetishes for missing limbs, amputated limbs or congenital malformations. According to an amputee pornographer, "The shorter the stump is, the sexier an amputee.""

"There is an abundance of evidence that marriage agencies are involved in activities that result in the sexual exploitation of women and children.  There are many anecdotal reports from NGOs about the involvement of marriage agencies in the sex trafficking of women, but more investigations and collection of evidence into official cases are needed to firmly document their involvement."

I could have added more but I didn't due to space constraints.  Just because Hannah is unaware of the evidence does not mean it does not exist.  The most damning testimony was given by Ms. Suzanne Jackson, a researcher from George Washington University.  Check it out.

Well, I can't help but notice that your cited 'examples' mainly amount to what appear more like improprieties of use of such services. For example:

• "Under age" people listed. While I also see us alerted that concerns aren't confined to the U.S., the specific "age of consent" is mainly either a legal and/or moral standard. One that doesn't so much have a global calibration, which forces other issues. But, still, everyone is required to abide by laws and proprieties individually, too, just as in any other social venue. So I can't see the persons might violate that as intrinsic or unique to an "international social matchmaking" service and would not appear to be a reason to so globally disapprove.

• The disabled fetish sure never even occurred to me, but frankly I'm not so sure that that's inherently "wrong", between two consenting parties. That kind of angle is more dimensional.

I'm just very surprised to be finding what now really does seem to be primarily a suspicion and speculation and projected basis for such an adamant and severely condemning campaign... with what's now appearing to be a relatively serious paucity of manifest, compelling evidence of any such intrinsic nature to these services.

Personally, the concept of such services doesn't offend me at all -- UNLESS it's clearly demonstrated that there is, indeed, a fundamental basis to these as charged. And that would have to be explicitly evidenced and well so, for me to be able to support censorial, controlling moves.

That said, I realize that others have other priorities and ways.